First flats

[8rad]

Thanks guys, I have been taking advantage of all your advice.


Got the lego, glass sheet and the plasticine. Fine detail plaster with a harder rating than dental plaster and to that added acrylic polymer hardener 1/3 ratio. Aiming at the best simulation of slate, without a cheap stable source of slate especially after brexit as mentioned i need a plentiful supply. Also want to try slate but once my engraving skills improved.


As i have been publishing paper minis up until now got a good feel for design (front and back). See attached, i print direct onto  tracing paper. Think i have figured out a way to get the alignment spot on but yet to try.


Now i have the first hardened blank blocks and a easy design to try I just need to dial in the time to engrave.


Another avenue I hope to explore is once the master mould is made to then use a flat with silicone rubber to create a production mould.   

[/size][size=78%] [/size]

[Gerald]

Im pretty sure the soot trick used on slate wont work.

With Russ, all professional engravers have been doing this for a long time and then you have to transfer the original drawing to tracing paper and glue it to the stone with adhesive tape...

 and buy slate if you want to have a good result. The few slate stones cost, at the address I gave you, so between about 7 and maybe 18 € depending on the size. I think that's not too expensive ... and Scotland is still in the EU next year, maybe it will be a bit more difficult and expensive.

[BobLeighton]

I believe the way that the flat mould maker gets the reverse onto the plaster is  to transfer the original drawing onto tracing paper.
They simply make a tracing of the two faces back and front transfer the front onto the appropriate block and the transfer the rear to the correct face on the other block.
You must be able to line up both tracings so that each is exactly centralised so that the two drawings lie in the correct position when onto top of each other to make your match.


I would suggest that you place a number of pencil lines on both blocks. one down the enact centre one across the middle, then one from each corner, that should establish the exact centre of each block, you have to check your measurements to make sure that each entre is in the same place. Centralise tour tracing, transpose the tracing onto the block, same for the reverse and again check that all lines up. Then cut you mould.


You will also need some soft plasticine which you can press into the pattern as you cut to constantly check that you are cutting correctly.
Good luck.
#
The simplest way would to make a master front and back then pour your plaster over that, but again you will have to centre the pattern, I suppose that having made one master this way, you could simply higher the side of your mould box and pour the back straight onto the front. You will have to have some release agent between the two halves, otherwise they will never part?


Hope this helps.
Kind regards
 Bob

[8rad]

Hi Brad, good to see you having a go and I have been watching how your getting on.
I too have tried, first with Plaster and the best I found was "Moulding Powder"  from South Western Industrial Plasters or a good art shop, easy to use and good for engraving, plus it takes the tin well, the Quad was one of my first



Keep at it you can do it !! oh just one more thing heat the mould in the oven before pouring your tin.     

Thanks guys been looking into mould powder & dental stone both look to blow potter plaster out the water for quality and hardness. Going to give böckchen's idea with the lego, mirror & dental stone a go, but need to figure out how to print the outline of the engraved mini on the reverse block. Im pretty sure the soot trick used on slate wont work. Brian your first quad mini looks really good, how did you do the reverse side.

[Brian]

Hi Brad, good to see you having a go and I have been watching how your getting on.
I too have tried, first with Plaster and the best I found was "Moulding Powder"  from South Western Industrial Plasters or a good art shop, easy to use and good for engraving, plus it takes the tin well, the Quad was one of my first



Keep at it you can do it !! oh just one more thing heat the mould in the oven before pouring your tin.       

[8rad]

Im pretty good at crafty things, but dang these things are hard. Got pretty close using potters plaster but even with vents the metal just does not flow for me. Took a bit of a side quest in modellers wax with the idea of carving the mini then making the mold using it, still on going. However it just feels better reverse carving into a mold.


As for the mold mold used a few different things from silocone to 3d printed deconstruct able frames but getting that super tight and even fit the slate molds have is also a summit of its own. Moreover plaster is messy as hell, been on the wrong end of the mrs wrath a few times to the the state of the shed  [size=78%]. [/size]


Ideally i just want to buy smooth even blocks and spend the time learning engraving. But that said its also a pretty good feeling when you first press in some plasticine to reveal a neat looking wee figure as testament to what amounts to an occult ritual getting there.   

[BobLeighton]

One thing. if using plaster you MUST make sure that it is all dry.
If you have even the hint of moisture in the mould when you pour hot metal in, you will get a blowback of hot metal through the pouring vent or air vents, this can be disastrous and very painful.
When pouring metal never look into or peer over the vent..
You need to exercise extreme care when pouring hot metal and make sure that you wear safety goggles and gloves.
regards
 Bob

[BobLeighton]

If you are using dental plaster which you used to be able to buy at all branches of Boots, not sure now, if you look around the shelves  of the major retailers you will see that items that don't sell fast or items that only have a small profit margin are disappearing fast.
Once the plaster has been poured into the mould it needs to be shaken or stirred at the top to try and get as much air out of the mixture, air equals bubbles which equals holes in the plaster and also delays the setting time of the plaster. Used to use these type of moulds to war gaming figures in the fifties. If you can find some of the early War gaming books, they might contain some mention of the use of plaster.
Regards
If you cant steal Lego bricks from your children Plasticine is a useful alternative
 Bob

[böckchen]

Hi Guys,
First of all thank you for having the courage to prove yourself as a serious.

Gypsum stones are a good cheap start. But these should produce them first.

- optimally use 1 glass plate or mirror
- with LEGO bricks you can put the size together.
- use pourable dental plaster, optimally, it is a hard plaster with few air holes

You can also use cast ceramic

everything else I leave to your talent to teach from the experience.

[BobLeighton]

Hope this might help, found it while looking for something else.
Always the way
regards
 Bob

[8rad]

the holes were buried so that the air can escape from the mold. This is done where no air ducts can be pulled out. In the holes wooden sticks are put so that no tin can run into the hole.

Ahh makes sense, spent today casting enough plaster blocks for 3 figures. Also taking advantage of the sun we are getting to dry them out. So hopefully go to start a engraving tomorrow in to early next week. Plenty pewter ready to go =)

[Gerald]

the holes were buried so that the air can escape from the mold. This is done where no air ducts can be pulled out. In the holes wooden sticks are put so that no tin can run into the hole.

[8rad]

Hi


Brill thanks for these, the link at the end was most helpful. I see the basic workflow now, not sure what her was doing at 1.30 in the second section (drilling small holes and putting something in). But other than that looking at his tools i have many tools and engraving pens that look the same. I just thought were they for wood and have been using them wrong.


Going to retry with harder potters plaster to simulate slate (and practice) before getting the real stuff. Thinking also to 3d print a 1mm thick silhouette for judging the initial depth. I imagine its easy to take out to much in one area making the overall result uneven.


Anyways huge thanks for the pointers and links, pretty much going to have a go over the weekend. 
 

[Gerald]

Now the suitable tool is actually made for goldsmiths.
Bollstichel the size 1,2,4,6 and the same as Flachstichel should be sufficient for the beginning.
many engravers will eventually make their "own" tool out of steel needles, etc.
Here is an address in Germany where you can order tool. http://www.zujeddeloh.de/artikel540.html#a2608 Certainly there are also dealers in the UK.You can order slate here. It is very good and cheap engraving slate. It is the best price I know in Germany.
http://www.raizinn.de/ say here Greetings from me 
and something else to watch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrp5j_KrbAU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG0KKm1qU9E

http://www.zinnfiguren-rieger.de/Frame-Set%20firma.php?unterseite=gravuren.php&PHPSESSID_netsh10540=3ecb0335b1144390639888c581f29fee

I hope this helps youGruß Gerald

[8rad]

Hello,
Plaster is actually quite good. Cast ceramic should be better suited.
Slate is not the same as slate. Roof slate, floor slate, etc. is not suitable.
If you want I can tell you an address where you can order good engraved slate in Germany, at a reasonable price. (I think the shipping will be more expensive than the slate). I can also give you an address where you can order the tool for the engraving.

Greetings Gerald

Thanks Gerald that would be really appreciated =). Shame I have a big pile of roof slate which I have been experimenting on with power engravers and wood tools. No idea there was a special tool, hoping to learn much more from the art of the tin figure when it arrives. May be more expensive plaster would be better than the bog standard plaster of Paris I tried before. I have access to a kiln so could make the tougher fired stuff.