All lost?

[Hannibal]

Nice discussions on the table.
However, we have to remember that
1) Flat figures in exhibitions, compétitions ad show represent globally about 5 to 8% of the figures presented
2) Small sizes (30 mm, even 40 mm) flats are declining in volume since the XXth century, mosty handled (there are exceptions), by people getting older, not so much by Young painters
3) New painters of small flats do'nt paint any longer large series like in the past, but single pièces with more détails, reducing the volume, but also the profitability of such business = single moulds for 30mm size are too expensive, serie moulds don't sell as many flats in the serie are satying behind in stock. Therefore traditonal series are less and les profitable.
4) Newer and younger painters are more attracted by larger size flats (54 to 120mm), busts, and non historic or soldiers themes and subjects. These are flats figures anyway.
5) It is true that today single 30 mm flats ar less chance of being awarded as they have less visibility than the larger ones, but creating a separate class will emphasize their decline.   The same if we separate busts apart, historical subjects, fantasy, fantastic, .... in many subclasses ... when then on a 40 to 70 maximum pièces presented in a competition in Europe (agasint the 500 to 1200 round figures!!), will no longer be attractive and at most would leave one award by CLASS due to their multiplication ..

I see more the 30 mm flat business declining to the benefit of newer sizes and themes.  Of course it causes nostalgy for older painters, but the same occurs with round figures where also fantastic themes, animals, busts are growing towards historical 54 and 75 mm sizes, contributing to maintain this business and art alive !!!

We see the same decline for large or medium dioramas towards single figures or sanyetes of 2 or 3 characters.  Rejecting these new mode will accelerate the killing of the business.

We see the same rejection behaviour of the few painting of subjects on flat, non engraved surface duriung the last few years (like painting works of A. Retuerto, C. Cesario, a bit of Y. Durand on mangas, JP Duthilleul on a few).  These are not flat figures defined as engraved surfaces in two dimensions to be painted as three dimensions by the art of painting.  I had also the same rejection assimilating those as "miniatures", paintings like old painters on canvas, wood, ...

But this is a new kind ( or résurrection of an old) of painting requiring also the talent of drawing himself the subject, so in some sense more skills than painting a pre-engraved subject.  Their volume is much too low to create a separate class (only 1 to 3 per show), but it should also not be rejected, but rather encourage until a separate group can be open and more artists be participating to this world of "figurines".  Indeed subjects are similar, and no other show exists to have them growing.

We are not here to kill forms of art, but to promote them, grow, diversify. Noverlty is always causing rejection by traditionnalists, but attraction by modernists.  The firts will resist, the other push, ... Where is progress then ?? Should be stay with cavern painting, or egyptian bas-relief as unique way of painting ?? Use post and handwritten letters are only method of communication? 

We are free to select the one that fits us the best and convince in show or competition that we continue to please, to be the best in our art, hoping this form will continue to be popular and competitive ....

[louis]

I totally agree with Jan!
For me, the classic 30-mm flat figure is ”The Real Thing” but also 45-mm may do. But the large ones, the busts, pendants and whatnot, are NOT tin figures, as far as I am concerned.
They are something else and incomparable to the real flat tin figure. In the Kulmbach competition, they should be entered in a class of their own.


 
/Louis

[Hannibal]

 

[marko]

It is interesting but, one of the things that drew me to flats after 40 years with rounds was the wealth of non-Military figures.  Where else did you have the wealth of Egyptian figures or an Egyptian fire brigade or a Rococo ball?  For me great stuff.


Someone also mentioned Frank's wonderful set of an an Egyptian bath as well as Mohr's Walpurgis not to mention Mohr's Medieval bath all of which I find quite charming when they are well painted.  (Mohr definitely had a sense of humor which comes out in his figures.)


The variety of choice is definitely one of the main pluses of flats.


mark 

[Hannibal]

I have the reverse path, started with large scale flats, and since two years, turn more & more to the 30 mm = they are so rich, beautiful to and diversified. 

Also they allow me to investigate deeply the history and the History, of each character, which let me re-discover the past of what human beeings have not as good and horrible in the past leading us to what we are today and why we love to make war to everyone around us continuousely for futilities and ambition of power and egocentricity, a major characteristics that animals don't fortunately have, and make them more respectful than humans !

[kevind]

I would attribute the fading of the 30mm flat, in great part, to the aging of the flat painter community.
At 70, i need some serious magnification to do one.
Also, the incredible amount of large scale, superbly casted large flats has skyrocketed(thanks Benedikt and Jupiter Miniatures).
I enjoy them more than the 30mm...but still do an occasional classic flat.

[Brian]

So there's room for both, as someone who dabbles in the sell of flats here's a few observations.


At shows the larger figures sell but unless the 30mm set is from the "old masters" they will go home with me.
Girls? as already been said sex sells!!   Joerg and myself produce pinups and they sell well but I think the big problem is being able to get the figures in the first place.


We have the inter net which has made things so much easier but the painter likes to see the figure in the tin before buying and this is not happening, editors can be a funny lot at times and pick and chose who they will do business with, some take Paypal and some don't so the market from the UK and USA is limited.


The collector I believe will always be there but is reducing in numbers, we are not showing the new 30mm flats as much as the old. at a show you will see a painted set from Mohr or Haffer but when did you last see a set by Wolfgang Bock, Wolfgang Friedrich or the great figures being made buy Alexander Barden, more exposure of the 30mm military figure is needed or the large figures will continue to out sell and the traditional flat figure will be a thing of the pass 


Forgot to say, producing the large single figure cost a lot less then producing a set of 30mm therefor more can be made. 

[Gerald]

Yes, a hobby is changing and that is good.
There are still some editors of classical tin figures, which also engrave new figures, eg. W. Bock, R. Fischer, U. Emke, F. Dittmar, and others. And there are still many forms that are new to be edited, eg. At Zinnfiguren Fleesensee. So nothing is lost. It is rather the flat tin figures are now richer, with fantasy, manga, horror figures and sexy girls.

Sure, you will not see any more great figures at exhibitions / competitions, because you can make these figures more artistic than with small historical figures.

There will be both the Historical 30 mm figure and also the big girls;)
Because I do not worry.

[willie]

Well there is a old saying   Sex sells   Also it is what sells the best rather it be in figures or published books. An example would be say Uniforms of the German Army   There is so much out there on this subject it makes my head hurt  but it pays the bills. You are dealing with a younger generation who have been brought up with this stuff and want it now. If they cant get it by a touch of a figure on a key board they don't want to do it . Some of the new figures coming out today are outstanding   . There is such a wide range out there.    I think there is always going to be something for everyone.  If you want to get a young person interested in this hobby unplug the cell phone and place a book in front of him . Get a cheap figure or kit and work with him or her. Willie 

[Hannibal]

?
Nude women in semi historical dresses has been a subject for painters since many centuries, when looking at the Renaissance, later Rembrandt, impressionism, ene even more recently in the XX and the XXI centuries ....

First shoking the well thinking persons used to classicism, but later copied and multiplied....
Wha to say about 30mm flats like the Greek and Egyptian legends, the Night of Walpurgis engraved by a well known Mohr, Egyptians bathing , most visited and read flat on this site, so very popular?

Ignoring these forms of art whuch have always existed seems a bit overreacting.

But it is true that the old 30mm historical flats are no longer as popular today as in the past, replaced by other art expressions in moovies, painting, sculpture, and ... flat painting.  Also fantastic figurines is a new area nt existing 50 years ago, and which exploded during the recent 20 years !!!

As a matter of fact, my wife, Turksih is painting almost only these kind of flat paintings if you go and see my gallery and her section ... If we deny these subjects and fantastic, I am afraid our hobby will die within less than five years ..... and be only visible in musea like our old telephones, typewriting machines and TSF radios ....

We can say the same with modern music, like rap and the others and we should perhaps ask oursleves : is it not US that are aging and no longer evolving with the world that surrounds us?

[Mike G]

Just not as many traditionalists left. I only paint 30mm figures, and most were engraved long ago. But to each their own. There is certainly a trend towards large scale non military but I suspect it's just a trend.

[marko]

Times and tastes change seems to fit this category.


While not my cup of tea generally, I am quite impressed at times with some of the painting skills from some of these folks.  (Much like some of the monsters and super hero figures - again not my thing but, some stunning figures.)


Given the declining interest in our hobby we seem ironically in a 'Golden Age' with a wealth of figures, time eras and categories.  This statement is true with the broader hobby as a whole with every tank/plane being available in kit form.


Like many other phases on our hobby I suspect this too will find it's place and we will move on to other new territories.  (Some recent fads that seem here to stay are figure busts as started by Mike Good, wedgies - partial tanks or planes with figures - John Rosengrant and large scale flats.  I have a few of the latter but, still prefer 30mm.)


For me, there is too much in life to get angry about without letting it invade my hobby life.


mark 

[oleg]

Dear Kulmbach,
I totally agree with you. I am really disappointed with the spin that our hobby takes. There are so many interesting historic subjects to be depicted using flat figure. Why nude girls in semi-historical dress? What a flood of low taste and poorly engravings. Ludvig Frank could work in different scales but mistakes of most modern engravers are obvious, especially when they are trying to copy great masters of the past. No respect for Rembrandt, Van Eyck and others. And why big scale metal flat portret - take a canvas and try to do a scale copy. Somebody may say - Oh, you are too serious. It is just a hobby. Yes, it is my hobby and I am taking it very serious. I can not talk about it in a low temper, because everything is boiling inside me when I see where it all goes.
Oleg

[Kulmbach]

When I saw the pictures from one continentel figur show now presented at the Forum, showing 90%  large scale ladies in various staged of nudity and even bigger bust figures, I then  wondered what has happend to the figures I fell in love and began to collect in the mid 50:ies, and still love?
Jan