International Flat Figure Society - British Flat Figure Society
Flat Figures Painters Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joerg on February 05, 2022, 09:04:53 AM
-
Hello everyone out there!
My collector friend Frank paints actual a couple of stunning knights from the range,
edited by Western Miniatures.
Figure WM 180 let a question come up:
What is written at the banners obverse ?
Clearly to identity is
EN ESPOIR
IVIETATEN (?)
DANTCRACE (?)
Can anyone provide any help ?
Thanks !
-
This should help a bit -
From the BFFS Journal 7.3 The Standards and Banner at Flodden by Jon Redley, under the English Standards
[attach=1]
If anyone has the figures Jon's series is very handy.
Mark
-
Thank you, Marco !
Unfortunately the inscription is even harder to read, than on the engraving's design. :-(
O.K., I will wait, if someone comes around with a better explanation....
But thanks anyway !
-
I did also look around on internet without success for this banner, unnkown ..., but unsuccessfully. He was an admiral, and worn perhaps the banner of the Chief commander of the battle Sir Edward Howard.
One link for small figurines (as for Western Miniatures) : Don't Throw a 1: Sir Edward Echyngham Banner for Flodden (onelover-ray.blogspot.com) (https://onelover-ray.blogspot.com/2011/03/sir-edward-echyngham-banner-for-flodden.html)
When looking at the banner itself, it looks like :
DANT GRACE (rendant grâce)
IEVI' ATEN (Levithian?) correction
EN:ESPOIR
PLAIN ET
SURE
mixture of French (from William the Conq), Latin (religion), saxon or celtic and old English ...
Perhaps writing to some Historian institution in Great Britain
At the end, what matters ?? to paint it on a 30mm flat, where the text of the banner will not be longer than a few mm, who will read it? What about the words and text of the pother two banners above and from Marko? as the animals and characters of the three banners differ much more than the texts....
The truth might possibly be found at the museum of the Flodden battle?
-
A quite useful little booklet is Standards, Badges and Livery Colours of the Wars of the Roses by Pat McGill and Jonathan Jones. Includes a lot of colour illustrations, unfortunately does not include Echyngham.
-
There are also three books of Heraldic Banners of the Wars of the Roses by Thomas Coveney. These are all published by Freezywater Publications.
-
When Dick had these engraved, the banners were of different people on each side. WM 179 has the banners of Sir Marmaduke Constable and Thomas, Lord Dacre. WM 180 has the banners of Edward Echyngham, Captain of the 'Spaniard' and Lord Scrope. The attached pics from the Military Modelling Annual from 1982 may help.
-
I think that the book on War of The Roses flags is a good one . You might try the Miniatures page for Wargames Historical section check out the flags for 28 mm and the decals . :D Willie
-
At the end, what matters ?? to paint it on a 30mm flat, where the text of the banner will not be longer than a few mm, who will read it?
Frank cares (my collector friend) He is sort of a perfectionist.
Anyway- friends, I thank you for all your contributions.
They help a lot.
Hopefully we will see the result soon.
-
I should have the correspondence between Mr Block and Mr Jenkins. If there's time between now and the weekend, I'll see what's on the template for the drawing.
-
I did find some correspondence between Mr Block and Mr Jenkins. But unfortunately not about this figure. Unfortunately, I have not yet found the large original drawing for this one either, on which one might have been able to see the writing better on the smaller engraving drawing.
I am sorry.
-
Hallo Jörg
ich habe eine Kopie eines alten Buches auf dem Rechner, das Original Banner ist zu finden, aber ohne Motto, im Verzeichnis wird er Ichingham genannt.
Auf drei Seitiger Auflistung der Mottos ,ebenfalls nicht erwähnt.
-
Hello Martin,
thanks for your contribution!
Frank has started to give this inscription a meaning, (involving Hobbes and his philosophical thoughts)
and I helper with a bit more erath-bound sense in it :)
I hope he will give us some examples of his work soon.
-
Answering the question was harder than I thought. Through a friend whose daughter studies ancient languages and is interested in celtic, I have now received an answer. She herself didn't know either, but the question was forwarded through her to a specialist at an English university.
The words are a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, Norman and French. They should actually come from the period around 1390 to 1410.
In German the saying means:
(Klar) und sicher
(dessen) Huld (ich) dort erwarte in Hoffnung
Whereby even the specialist is not 100% sure about the first part.
My English is too bad to translate this. I will try it anyway: ::)
(Clear) and safe
(whose) mercy (I) expect there in hope
I have now still asked to decipher the individual letters for me. Otherwise the flag can not be labeled.
I hope that I will also get this answer.
-
I have already received the answer: :)
DANT CRACE IEVIE ATEN EN ESPOIR
Translation German (English):
DANT dessen (whose) CRACE Huld (mercy) IEVIE ich dort (I there) ATEN erwarte (expect) EN ESPOIR in Hoffnung (in hope)
-
Now I have received one more addition.
difficult is the word IEVIE: IE means "I" ("ich" in german). The following VIE might be a shortening of the Latin word IBI "there". The letter "I" disappears here because the two words are written together. The change from B to V is often found. The last I is stretched to IE.
This is an interpretation according to the sense.